You are no different than the other Jaeger droids who have no life but to post Jaeger's Voodoo on my website. You obviously have drank the Koolaid over at Jaeger Sports. You guys always claim that we do not have the science to back it up and it is actually Jaeger and his droids who never mention anything analytical about pitching mechanics. The only words you guys use is vocabulary taken from the dummies book to Yoga. This isn't even an argument anymore because of the ASMI comprehensive long toss case study they just released to the public here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21212502. I just gave you a link to this article on the last Jaeger propaganda you posted on my site. You obviously didn't read the study because you didn't even mention it in your post here. Do you plan on reading this study that the whole world is now aware of or are you just avoiding the issue because you are afraid it is going to make you look like a gullible imbecile? If you don't want to read the entire study then all that is important is that you at least read and actually retain the conclusion of the study. Here it is. I want you to write this down and then print it on a t-shirt and mail the t-shirt to Alan Jaeger.

Maximum distance throws produce increased torques and changes in kinematics; caution is therefore advised for use of these throws in rehabilitation and training.

So please go sell your Jaeger snake oil somewhere else.

the key to long toss is effortless movement, followed by a correct and functional pull down phase. pulling down the baseball (we have had this discussion) is not like yanking a rope from a ceiling. using the lats (biggest back muscles) to accelerate the arm through release point

the ultimate benefit of long toss is conditioning of the arm. this makes sense due having to throw a ball 88mph+ to reach 300ft.

http://faculty.tcc.fl.edu/scma/carrj/Java/basebal…

the point of placing the body under this stress is to be able to handle whatever pitch count during preformance. condition the deacclerating muscles by accelerating them and make them work harder and build

rest is key to long toss, dont be an idiot and gun it on a line everyday. you will fail

learn how to throw right using the body, then learn how to pitch

with all due respecti am quite disappointed in your philosophy, hopefully you use this knowledge and better yourself sir

i know my opinion does not mean much, but i have improved to throwing 300+ without much effort, just good flow and athleticism of my body that i have strength trained my posterior chain which helps my kinetic chain to throwing the ball.. the videos of the last year or so is quite amazing

cheers, drew

First off to say "velocity calculations is a fuzzy subject" is purely false. Equations of uniformly accelerated linear motion have been around longer than the sport of baseball has been played. We use these equations (precisely) to determine what speeds, forces, and angles are required to launch rockets into space and back, how to build race tracks so cars don't fly off the turns, and how to predict how long it will take you to fly from NY to FL. This is an exact science, not fuzzy. However what you may have been trying to relay is that the variables can be unknown in the equation thus making the resuly unreliable. The basic variables needed for the equations of motion are; initial speed, acceleration, distance, and time. These are the variables needed for the classic version of the equation you teach high school students etc… but we are not discussing rocket science in this thread so they are appropriate for this.

Brent, you are correct to say distance does not equal velocity, however velocity does not equal distance either. Note they have different units. For example one is in terms displacement if you will, i.e. miles; while the other is in terms of displacment over a period of time i.e. miles per hour. However the equation is equal and assuming all the other variables of acceleration (gravity), and time etc… are the same then distance can solve for initial velocity, and initial velocity can solve for distance regardless of which direction you solve the algebraic equation. For example if i told you i was traveling 60mph and i drove for (3) hours then we can calculate that we traveled 180miles. Just the same, if I said i traveled 180miles in (3) hours than we can calculate that we travel at a rate of 60 mph. Again this is assuming every variable was constant and the same, i.e. we were not accelerating to 80mph and then slowing to 40mph during the traveled time etc…

So what is my point. My point is to argue that becasue you can "throw the ball 250 feet doesn't mean you are throwing 85mph" is a statement without any conditions. Sure I can put my (5) year old on top of a 250 ft building and ask her to throw the ball off. Assuming gravity does not accelerate the ball to 85mph we can still claim the ball traveled 250 at a speed of less than 85pmh. Just as i can state that I can throw a ball 100mph and it will not displace (travel) 250ft. If i throw that 100mph ball straight up into the air then it comes back down it went nowhere. Getting back on point, velocity does have something to do with distance if every variable is the same. If i throw the ball at a known velocity, and a know angle to the ground, in a knowm amount of time assuming no drag coefficient etc… then i can calculate how far the ball will travel. That's how the ball goes into the upper deck in home run derbys and they know how far it would have gone had it not been caught. Applying that to throwing a ball if the angle were the same and i knew how far it traveled (same amount of time etc…) then I can calculate the velocity. This is how radar guns and spedometers are made. So yes I think we can conceed that if you can throw the ball from the ground a distance of 350ft on a point on the ground somewhere else that you must have some amount of force (velocity) to do that. I child who throws 45mph can not throw the ball 350ft (in this application – not the building example).

To conclude that outfielders don't stride as far or has a different release point etc… therefor practicing those types of throws to me is absud. If i was throwing a runner out from deep right field and threw the ball 90mph straight into the ground 5 ft in front of me then that would not have served my purpose at that position, so obviously yes i must have a higher launch angle to get the ball to travel further. Just as a pitcher throwing 90mph does not mean the ball would have ultimately traveled 60ft – 6". Unless he released the ball to fall into the ground, it would continue to travel. It stops because the catcher stopped the ball, not because it was his release point.

What you have not mentioned at all is angular rotation. That is the rotating of your hips and core. This creates a force and it is the same regardless if you release the ball high or low if the speed of rotation is the same. I suggest that outfielders rotate just as violently as pitchers perhaps even moreso when they launch there bodies into the air in the direction of their throws. However they perhaps stride (linearly) less than a pitcher becasue time is of the importance. When a pitcher strides with no runners on base it doesn't matter if his stride takes 1 second or 2 seconds. But the difference in one second to the outfielder could be the difference in the runner scoring or not. That means if the thrower consistantly throw 90pmh a given distance, the only other variable they can change is (time) which means the outfield must stride shorter and release sooner to get that runner out.

Your example of Josh Beckett throwing is not in context. That is a still picture of a a pitch and a still picture of him throwing the ball somewhere else. Why was he striding shorter? Is he only 20ft from his target, is time of the essence to get a runner out, is he warming up or is this game time? None of these questions are answered in the photo. I can speak again about physics and math that if you stride a certain distance on a flat ground, and then you make that same length stride and then drop it down the distance of the pitchers mound it will be longer. Pythangorian thereom, thus it does appear that he is striding further. But another reason was also never mentioned why pitchers stride longer. It goes back to our motion equation. If i decrease my distance from the mound to the plate, and i am throwing the ball with the same velocity, then the ball will get to the plate faster. The velocity of the pitch didn't change, the distance did, therefor the time it takes to get to the plate was faster and the batter must react quicker. To assume that the stride puts you in a more powerful position is just common since. Look at the phots you supplied, now put a 200lb bar bell on their shoulders which stance would you prefer to use your legs? Obvousily the more upright stance, which goes back to angular velocity. The longer stride allows your body to rotate at the core longer and generate more power. The linear motion to home plate does not add that much power in comparision to rotating.

I've exhausted my time, sorry so long, would love to hear all of the comments.

Most cheap radar guns pick up the highest speeds. More advanced and expensive guns can pick up all different moments of speed in the path of the ball. The velocity speeds you see with MLB pitchers on TV are picking up the highest speeds.

How far you can throw to velocity calculations is a fuzzy subject because science shows that velocity equals distance but distance doesn't equal velocity. Programs like Alan Jaeger's long toss to velocity is very misleading because of what I just stated. Just because you can throw the ball 250 feet doesn't mean you are throwing 85 mph. If someone is selling you this then this is a SCAM.

And do you think the "how far you can throw" to velocity calculations are fairly accurate?. for a poor man's radar gun?