Feel vs Real | Talk Pitching | TopVelocity Baseball Forum

A A A
Avatar

Please consider registering
Guest

Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters – maximum search word length is 84 characters

Register Lost password?
sp_Feed
Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 (0 votes) 
sp_TopicIcon
Feel vs Real
Avatar
singtall

Minor Leaguer
Members
Forum Posts: 168
Member Since:
January 19, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
September 26, 2011 – 8:53 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory
0

we have been working on the 3X program for quite some time now and my son does a pretty decent job of using the mechanics that Brent teaches.  me and Nicolas had a discussion today about which mechanics he feels is right for him.  he had a toss up between Lincecum and Chapman’s style of pitching.  what i have told him many times is that feel is usually not real.  sometimes. when he feels like he is pitching a certain way, i can tell from watching him that he is off in “feel” and and it isn’t helping him.  some of it is my fault because i ask him to visualize pitching in a certain style because it will often help him get his mind in a good place, which helps him pitch better.  today was a good day for him, his accuracy was really on,  but he couldn’t make up his mind which style to stay with.  so a recorded 3 pitches in each of his two favorite styles, then asked him to pitch in a way that he says feels weaker/less velocity.  i can tell you that when i caught for him i was equally terrified to catch with no gear on.  lol.

style one – Lincecum:

all strikes here, good control.  if he misses, it will be either high or low…but rarely to the side.  i’m concerned with how close his hand misses his knee,  which caused two balks last season (he hit his knee and dropped the ball).

 

style three – Chapman style:

again, all strikes here with good control.  occasionally he releases a little side arm and it results in a miss to the outside, but overall ok.  i’m concerned with the squat down he does, maybe too much  pressure on the back knee and will tire him too easy.

 

style three – Daddy’s mix:

again, all strikes with good control.  problem is that Nicolas “feels” like he isn’t throwing as hard.  my hand would beg to differ!  Nicolas feels like this is a “tall and fall” style and doesn’t like the feel.  i think he looks more pro here, and i think this would be easier to repeat and require less energy.

feel free to chime in.

Avatar
singtall

Minor Leaguer
Members
Forum Posts: 168
Member Since:
January 19, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
September 26, 2011 – 10:05 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

more data for your consideration;  i had Nicolas throw again, this time i used a radar gun and didn't tell him the speeds until he finished all three styles.  he pitched 3 balls with each style.  here are the results:

Lincecum – 63, 63, 62mph

Chapman – 65, 67, 68mph

mixed – 64, 63, 63mph

surprising, for sure.  after Nicolas knew the speeds, i asked to to try something else (mechanically).  i asked him to first stand tall (like the last mixed style) and after gravity started to pull him forward,  go Chapman.

results – 67, 69, 68mph.

to add yet one more thought; i asked him to get his hip fully open by foot plant.

results – 70, 72, 69mph.

at this point, i need to hear from Brent and see which way to go.  speed is a beautiful thing…as long as you can still control it.

Avatar
Brent Pourciau USAW Certified
Mandeville, LA.
Admin
Forum Posts: 2779
Member Since:
April 27, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
September 26, 2011 – 10:37 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Ross, what are the mechanics differences between the styles? This will help me get a better picture here.

Avatar
Coach Robo
Broken Arrow, OK

Minor Leaguer
Members

Coaches
Forum Posts: 257
Member Since:
July 14, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
September 27, 2011 – 12:07 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Ross,

     I know you asked Brent, but if he's on my team we go with the 69-72 mph and work on controlling it.  There is a gigantic difference between 69-72 and 62-63!  Just curious – how old is he? 

Proud father of a U.S. Marine (HOME from Afghanistan)

Avatar
Zedoryu
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

Major Leaguer
Members
Forum Posts: 580
Member Since:
August 28, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
September 27, 2011 – 5:22 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Yes I agree with you Brent, what is the difference between this styles? To me they look about the same, not sure. But yes 62-63 is a big difference to 69-72. You should also try to employ your own style. If you change your style, you’re changing your mechanics. So don’t try copying major leaguers, because they may be different, like size and flexibility etc. I mean it is good to compare, and try and copy, but copying and then making it into your own style I think would be better.

       

Avatar
singtall

Minor Leaguer
Members
Forum Posts: 168
Member Since:
January 19, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
September 27, 2011 – 9:38 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory
0

Nicolas is 12,  and will turn 13 in march.  he plays 13U ball this coming year.  he is currently playing fall ball with 13-15 year olds and doing pretty well.  the 15 year olds can hit his fastball, but the others can't.  we introduced a knuckle curve and a fosh which has helped him tame the older kids.

 

the differences that i see are:

Lincecum style – Nicolas tends to bend his back knee out a little,  he leans back and tries to throw more from a high slot.

 

Chapman style – Nicolas gets lower to the ground right off by bending his back knee,  he stands with his chest more bent forward instead of leaning back,  he closes off more to get more torque, and he concentrates on finishing as far out front as possible.

 

mix style – Nic basically thinks about getting to a balanced point as he falls hip first to the target,  everything else he does comes natural from the 3x pitching training.

 

the latest mix combines the mix style “tall then fall” with the extreme closing of the shoulders like Chapman, and finally a concentrated effort to fully open the hips at/by footplant.

 

these are pretty subtle things, but are there if you look for them.  it just goes to show that there are optimal 3x mechanics for his body type….we just had to find it.

Avatar
Brent Pourciau USAW Certified
Mandeville, LA.
Admin
Forum Posts: 2779
Member Since:
April 27, 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
September 27, 2011 – 12:09 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory
0

You need to do this on a mound because the flat ground is showing a very small difference but in slow mo I do see the added drive leg flexion at leg lift in the Chapman video which is creating more power through Nick's delivery. He has a little more hip to shoulder separation as well and forward trunk tilt at release. This would definitely support the 3x approach. When I put my guys on the gun and they are working to see what they can hit, every time I tell them to load more or build more flexion in the drive leg, as they are accelerating through the stride, this always adds 2-3 mph on the gun.

I compare this to a vertical jump. If you want to jump high you must load deeper. I do tell them though that there is a sweet spot. This sweet spot is based around their leg and core strength. If they load too deep then they get stuck. If they load too shallow then they do not develop enough flexion to allow for explosive extension. You can increase your sweet spot through strength and conditioning like in the 3X Pitching Velocity program. This is why strength and conditioning can increase a vertical jump and your velocity. I have had many guys tell me that not only has their velocity increased through the 3X program but their vertical jump increased as well.

Avatar
Coach Robo
Broken Arrow, OK

Minor Leaguer
Members

Coaches
Forum Posts: 257
Member Since:
July 14, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
September 27, 2011 – 12:47 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Brent,

     I've developed some velocity scales over the years to evaluate velocity at different ages.  How do these compare to what you see?  You can see that Nicolas scores well on these.

12 y.o.
  Scale:
    13 y.o. Scale:    
8 points) 67+
  miles per hour – Outstanding
    8 points) 70+ miles per hour –
  Outstanding
   
6 points)
  64-66 – Very Good
    6 points) 67-69 – Very Good    
4 points)
  61-63 – Above Average
    4 points) 64-66 – Above Average    
2 points)
  58-60 – Average
    2 points) 61-63 – Average    
0 points) 57
  and below – Below Average
    0 points) 60 and below – Below Average    
Changeup 6-8
  mph slower than fastball (0/2 points)
    Changeup 6-8 mph slower than fastball
  (0/2 points)
   

Proud father of a U.S. Marine (HOME from Afghanistan)

Forum Timezone: America/Chicago

Most Users Ever Online: 220

Currently Online: NickFury234, BenChihek
3 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

Zedoryu: 580

norcalRHP: 317

SCOTT D: 288

Coach Robo: 257

singtall: 168

Brandon: 129

Newest Members:

BenChihek

samlow1996

NickFury234

emmaparkers

Polon_201

Dorotty

Forum Stats:

Groups: 5

Forums: 34

Topics: 1758

Posts: 8173

 

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 6

Members: 2081

Moderators: 0

Admins: 3

Administrators: Brent Pourciau USAW Certified, 3x coach Kevin, 3x coach CJ