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Feel vs Real
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Zedoryu
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

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September 29, 2011 – 9:00 am
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Yes that is very true. I know someone who runs really fast and he has short steps but a quick turnover rate. But when he tried copying someone else who had a really long stride and he was faster, he tried copying his running mechanics but ended up being slower. Good thing to thing about there,like i mentioned find your own style and make the changes that actually brings up the velocity.

       

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singtall

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September 30, 2011 – 12:28 am
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it's not that he wants to be exactly like Lincecum or Chapman, it's just he finds it easier to have a reference for certain mechanical “feels” when he is in trouble on the mound.  if he thinks Lincecum; he thinks lean back and keep the right shoulder closed, which helps him get torque and finish in a high slot.  when he thinks Chapman;  he closes his shoulders more and tends to squat down lower and tries to finish more out front.  we are currently trying to find “his” style and get it into a groove where he no longer thinks about mechanics and other styles.  if you look at early footage of Lincecum,  he has pretty much the same mechanics as he does now.  that's what we are trying to achieve…proper mechanics for his body type at a young age.

 

Brent, pardon my bad description of Nic's current style (3x pitching).  when i watched the video, i thought “this is it, this is what Brent is trying to get us to do”.  then i got a little confused when you didn't immediately say that the third video was proper 3x pitching.  i'm definitely not a pro at everything 3x yet,  so i'm always looking for confirmation at every new step to make sure we are on the right path.  Nic has made so many “little” changes over the last 2 years (thanks to you spotting problems on videos) that i realize that i know very little at times.  every time i watch you do another mechanical analysis i learn something new.   and normally when i post a video of what we think is “the bomb” mechanics, you find the fault very quickly.  imagine my shock when you asked what's the difference in the three videos.  lol.  i felt like i was taking crazy pills!  i thought surely this is some type of Jedi 3x pitching test to see if i know what the hell i'm talking about.  i guess i failed again.  oh well,  there is always more to learn from you oh Obi One.Laugh

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Brent Pourciau USAW Certified
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September 30, 2011 – 12:44 am
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Sorry for busting your balls Ross, I think Nic is an exceptional athlete and a great kid who works really hard and is going to have a great career! The issues I am dealing with have nothing to do with you, so please do not take any of this personally. I am just sick of conventional wisdom and its use of “Tall and Fall” or “Drop and Drive” as descriptions to styles of pitching. It is like listening to a politician saying the same bone head stuff over and over again until you want to throw a baseball through the TV. It is like the conventional wisdom of this game has a vocabulary of a two year old. I feel like and hope that this site is helping change the way coaches and players perceive the pitcher. The problem is I feel like I am fighting a losing battle.

I am the last person who wants to censor anybody or anything but I am two clicks away from banning the pitching style descriptions “Tall and Fall” and “Drop and Drive” from this website. I would really never do this even though I would love too!

That's my rant for the evening!

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singtall

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September 30, 2011 – 10:57 am
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i hear ya.  it's just hard to describe the setup before triple extension any other way.  for me, it seems like you either keep your back leg straight and then let gravity pull you forward before you squat and triple extend, or you simply squat as soon as you want to before triple extension.  both ways fall under “tall and fall” or “drop and drive” but really can be done without triple extension, so they aren't a good way to describe what we do here.

how about we come up with some new ways to describe it before you go crazy.  lol.

maybe “tall and fall” can be called “fully upright”,  and “drop and drive” could be called “crouched position”?

the reason these things are still important to me as that they still contribute to velocity.  our radar experiment showed that for Nicolas at least,  he does better when he first gets into upright position, then crouched, then triple extended.  he seems to feel the load position and force vector better, which helps him time the triple extension.

3x is still the new kid on the block, and though it's way better and advanced, it's got a lot of components that aren't as easy to learn at first.  it's a lot of work and a lot of learning, but the end is well worth the effort.  

hopefully, my questions and your answers will help to complete the 3x pitching for dummies book. Wink

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Brent Pourciau USAW Certified
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September 30, 2011 – 1:08 pm
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I have actually developed the dummies book, it is called the Beginner's Guide to 3X Pitching. It uses the Sled drill to coach the challenge of the force vector. I would highly recommend that you and Nic use this drill if you are struggling with the Force Vector.

I really try hard to avoid coaching pitching like choreography. Using phrases like “fully upright” or “crouched position” or “Tall and Fall” describe mainly static positions. I make sure I am labeling the mechanics as dynamic components to a movement like “Triple Extension” or “Hip to Shoulder Separation.” I label pitching mechanics with more dynamic terms not to make coaching pitching easier but to guide the pitcher to a perspective that pitching is more of an athletic explosive movement than a dance. The coach will discover it is easier to coach the pitcher using the drills in the 3X program to coach these dynamic pitching mechanics than just using the terminology.

Ross, I feel that you are trying to just use the terminology to coach the mechanics and as you are experiencing, this is like beating your head against the wall. I promise you that you will not find that perfect way to describe these mechanics where it becomes a cookie cutter system. If you can learn to only use the drills to implement the motor coordination around these mechanics and then spend your bull pen time challenging Nic to move more explosively and throw effective pitches then you will develop Nic into a pitcher who will be able to challenge hitters more effectively. He is having issues with intensity in his game because he believes that his success is based on his ability to choreograph his pitching mechanics and not his ability to dominate hitters with his athletic ability. This is why, in my book, a strength and conditioning program is as important as a good throwing program. This is because a good strength and conditioning program not only builds power production but it builds confidence.

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singtall

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September 30, 2011 – 6:49 pm
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i bought the 3x pitching program, which came with the ace pitcher handbook, but at the time, the beginner's guide was still in the works.   how do i get the beginner's guide?

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Brent Pourciau USAW Certified
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September 30, 2011 – 8:50 pm
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Ross, this is the Beginner's Guide here. It also has the Beginner training program that is similar to some of the stuff Nic has been doing with the team.

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Coach Robo
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September 30, 2011 – 9:40 pm
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A little un-asked for advice from an old hand during a Yankees-Tigers rain delay:

 

I've been watching some of what Brent once called “paralysis by analysis” running through some of the topics on the forum.  I honestly believe that in a sincere and admirable effort to learn, some of you are making this way more complicated than it is.  The beauty of the 3X program is that there is no extraneous b.s. in it.  Brent has boiled the pitching delivery down to its essential components and doesn't complicate the program by talking about stuff that doesn't matter.  He basically does three things:

  1. He shows you on video precisely what high velocity pitchers do that low velocity pitchers don't.
  2. He shows you drills that train you to move the way high velocity pitchers do.
  3. He shows you how to train to gain the strength to move like that. 

It's as simple as that.  It's not easy.  It takes a lot of hard work.  But, it is simple – as in not complicated.  So, don't complicate it.  Watch the Mechanics and Analysis forum every time he posts one.  Every single one is a mini pitching lesson.  Every single one focuses on the same simple movements that produce velocity.  Every single one demonstrates and explains what triple extension is, how to achieve it, and how it leads to separation – and velocity.  They are the best pitching instruction I've found available anywhere.  And they're free!

You've already found the best pitching program available.  Appreciate it for its simplicity.  It's all right here.  Study it and just do it.

Brent, you're not losing any battles.  You're doing an outstanding job of teaching.  Your pitchers need to do an outstanding job of learning.       

Proud father of a U.S. Marine (HOME from Afghanistan)

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