Justin Verlander Pitching Mechanics | Page 2 | Talk Pitching | TopVelocity Baseball Forum
June 6, 2011
Here is a link to halladay
From what I see, he does not 3x until after front foot, but he does have separation. Maybe brent could do an analysis like verlander. Also, lets remember that halladay is not a high velocity thrower. He tends to max out at 89-90 mph. For a guy his size he may not be maxing out. He is however the best damn “pitcher” in baseball.
April 27, 2008
He is pretty close to 3x before front foot strike but like I pointed out with Verlander, big guys do not have to generate as much power as little guys because of their heavier mass. It is Newton’s second law of motion. You can see here though that Halladay generates more hip to shoulder separation than Verlander.
My advice here guys is to not spend to much time with these big guys. They do not have much to teach when it comes to mechanics. They have more to teach when it comes to bigger, stronger, faster with strength and conditioning. We will learn so much more mechanically from the little guys.
August 28, 2011
Skip, I don’t know much about an oppositional or antagonistic position, but I know that to achieve top separation tension in the core has to come just when 3x occurs. If it comes before, it is harder to hold that tension resulting in less separation, if that’s what you’re talking about. Or is it about the glove hand reflex reaction? I also agree with Brent that the glove side is a reaction to the stride. I think that front foot strike occurs before any hand movement other than scapular loading (in the safe zone) to get your hands in the throwing position. The glove hand shouldn’t be tucked before that. Hope that clarifies what I was saying.
June 6, 2011
Thanks Brent. That is a much better picture than my clip and he does have quite a bit of hip shoulder separation. Halladay is actually 6'6″ and 230 lbs. So when you look at halladay, verlander, randy johnson they are athletes who have physical advantages. I would prefer to look at lincecum and the Unnamed Japanese Pitcher to see what they are doing with their bodies to generate velocities that equal or exceed the big boys…….
In response to your last post …
The extension in the Pitcher's muscle groups create a reflex response in the opposing muscles. This reflex response accelerates the Pitcher's Throwing Hand through a consistently tiny release window. The Pitcher produces both command and velocity. (Check out this Google Search.)
About what you call the “still frames” … Pitching Chains slow down the entire pitching motion into a measurable format. You're looking at a stop-action of an actual video. This format clearly displays and allows a knowledgeable Pitching Coach to analyze the extremely delicate relationship and interaction between all parts of a Pitcher's motion without having to go back and forth within the video. A Pitching Chain allows a Coach to see and eliminate disruptions specific to that Pitcher's Pitching Chain.
From our conversations about pitching motions, I sense you believe an increased separation produces greater velocity.
Logically, to throw 90 MPH, your Arm acceleration needs to peak at at least 90 MPH. When I look at a scientific calculation for acceleration, I find an increased separation diminishes velocity.
Final Velocity = Initial Velocity + (Acceleration X Time taken to move from the initial state to the final state)
Acceleration = (Final Velocity – Initial Velocity)/Time taken to move from the initial state to the final state
and restating the last equation by substituting “Separation” for “Time taken to move from the initial state to the final state”
Acceleration = (Final Velocity – Initial Velocity)/Separation
Would you please take a second to explain how increasing “separation” improves a Pitcher's acceleration and enhances velocity?
L.A. “Skip” Fast
Pro Pitching Institute
L.A. “Skip” Fast
Pro Pitching Institute
July 14, 2011
What kind of a response do you usually get when you ask a teenage pitcher what his understanding of oppositional and antagonistic positions is? I've been following your posts since you started posting here and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt as I try to decide if you're just a guy with Paul Nyman's personality and absolutely none of Paul's insight into pitching – or if you actually have something to contribute.
I have a pitching diagnostic checklist that I designed to use with my pitchers. It has 48 different checkpoints on it for my benefit as I try to understand the entire delivery, but I would never remotely consider getting that detailed with a pitcher. I tell them there are four big things I want them to work on and we'll fill in the rest as they come up. You may very well have had some success with working with pitchers, but I'm absolutely positive it didn't come from talking to them about oppositional and antagonistic positions or the scientific calculation for acceleration. (Saving Cole Hamel's career is impressive. It would be even more impressive if you could show us Cole's letter to you.)
I'll let Brent prepare an answer to your question about separation. I know that the first time I discovered Brent's site I was amazed at the insight that I found both explaining things I was already teaching and introducing ideas about things I hadn't considered. His ideas and analysis of the pitching motion are enlightening and – more importantly – easily transferrable into useful pitching instruction with actual pitchers. On the other hand, I just spent an hour on your website and haven't learned anything new yet. Lots of words, lots of promises about the results of professional pitching instruction, but no useful information. I too, print a 16-shot pitching chain for my pitchers to see – although, I never called it that. I too, look backwards through the motion to find the cause of a flaw. I too, then make a recommendation for a change and follow up the results. I'm afraid your four-step approach isn't as revolutionary as you think it is.
I came away with a whole page full of unanswered questions from your site. I'll confine it to just a couple. 1) The first of your Three Laws of Pitching states that a pitcher's shoulders should remain horizontal throughout the delivery. A very short list of pitchers who tilt their shoulders includes Mariano Rivera, Tim Lincecum, Nolan Ryan, Roger Clemens, Pedro Martinez, Sandy Koufax, Juan Marichal, and Bob Feller. How do you explain their deliveries?
2) Your site is chock full of references to how to “coordinate hand/leg movements to keep the head over the hips”. I agree that's important, but all the space you devote to it makes it sound like you've found some revolutionary new way for a pitcher to do that. In words that a pitcher can understand, how would you describe how a pitcher should coordinate his hands to his stride?
It's hard to tell from your site, because you appear not to want to give all your secrets away. But, it appears that you favor a very conventional Jeff Suppan-type delivery as opposed to a dynamic delivery that generates velocity. Your site definitely emphasizes the importance of command and promises – guarantees, actually – to teach it, but doesn't go into much detail on how to achieve it other than with what I would consider pretty conventional and maybe even outdated mechanics. It's laughable that you imply on your site that scouts are all over guys who throw strikes. I don't know how many scouts you know, but the ones I've met do 80% of their scouting with a radar gun.
Skip, don't hold Brent responsible for my post here. Brent, I think you've been very patient and polite with Skip's arrogant and condescending tone in his posts. Sorry if I strayed out of bounds here. Your exchanges have been interesting. Don't let me break them up.
Proud father of a U.S. Marine (HOME from Afghanistan)
April 27, 2008
Coach Robo, I love heated debate as long as no body gets their feelings hurt. I definitely enjoyed your response here!
Skip, I feel the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S…..ning_cycle. His math also proves that by adding .02 of a second to the application time the pitcher increased velocity by 8.98 mph. This is why more separation can increase velocity. It increases acceleration through more application time by applying more force using the stretch shortening cycle.
I do agree with you Coach Robo. If you talk this crap to a young pitcher it goes in one ear and out to the other. I have always tried to keep my approach to pitching as simple as possible. Occam’s razor is my moto!
August 28, 2011
Yes, I would keep instruction as simple as possible. People can only take in two things at a time, they have to apply it, remember it before you tell them another, because they will forget easily. By the way what’s Occam’s razor? The math is so complicated. X( well Brent mentiones in one of his articles that if you don’t separate two rotational pivots act as one. That reduces velocity from the amount of force you’re applying to both these pivots. It’s like the somax analysis that I posted about in talk pitching section. Just don’t take in the way you should work on hips or not working with weights. What Brent is saying in his post above is that the longer you’re applying force the more force that is being generated, i think, to put it in layman terms.and can you explain what oppositional or antagonistic positions are?
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