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Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (3 votes) 
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Justin Verlander Pitching Mechanics
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Coach Robo
Broken Arrow, OK

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September 20, 2011 – 11:38 am
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Yeah, that was an interesting little thread while it lasted.  I'll get off the guy now.  He may be doing some good work with kids and that's great.  He just got caught with a very inflated sense of his own brilliance.  Too bad.  I kept looking on his site for something of substance.  He hinted at some things that might have been interesting.  “Staggerred arm actions to keep weight back” and a statement I found that separating the glove arm and the throwing arm at the same speed was a problem sounded interesting.  But, he never elaborated on anything.  Either he thinks his stuff is so good he doesn't want to give away any of his secrets or there's really nothing there.  And maybe someday Cole Hamels will credit his great season to a UPS guy in New Jersey and we'll all have to eat crow. 

Proud father of a U.S. Marine (HOME from Afghanistan)

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Brent Pourciau USAW Certified
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September 20, 2011 – 12:19 pm
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Scott,

Good point! How can you look at this picture of Lincecum and say he has minimal separation?

 

Also here is that sports science video of Tom House talking about separation with Chapman as the example. You can see that Lincecum has almost the same or better separation than Chapman.

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propitchinginstitute

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September 20, 2011 – 9:30 pm
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Brent,

Thanks for including Chapman's motion.  We've come full circle. 

His Foot Strike Sequence supports everything I presented in my first post on this thread. 

  1. His stride becomes a reflex reaction to his Glove Side activity,
  2. He produces exceptional command by anchoring his Glove Side Shoulder and
  3. His Lower Body activities generate extreme Throwing Arm speed without compromising their command.

I teach even the average Pitchers how to get into Chapman's Foot Strike position.  My Institute Pitchers may not throw 105 MPH, but I guarantee they'll excel on the mound by displaying exceptional command while by maxing out their velocity.

In the end, it seems like we're talking about the same thing from different perspectives.  The Chapman video talks about everything he does to produce his results without explaining how he does what he does.  On the other hand, I use my experience with multi-disciplined, kinetic pitching chain related science to show any driven Pitcher the “3 simple Front Side activities” required to produce the Chapman-like sequence you posted …. a Chapman-like Foot Strike Sequence with Chapman-like command and at a personal best velocity. 

Let me share an unsolicited e-mail received within the last 24 hours from a 3 week virtual Institute Pitcher who has been exposed to my hokey, non-traditional jargon and my scientifically correct “3 simple Front Side activities” …

 ” … the proof is in the pudding and I must say, after yesterday's outing, I am a believer!  My Son  threw about 20-25 pitches from the mound yesterday and I am telling you, he hit over 80% right to the mitt!  I am talking about pin-point command – keeping the ball down and hitting the corners consistently!  He was having fun – no frustration, no wildness at all.”

Thanks for letting me give your readers a different point of view.

L.A. “Skip” Fast
Pro Pitching Institute

L.A. “Skip” Fast
Pro Pitching Institute

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Darrell Coulter
Bonne Terre, Mo

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September 20, 2011 – 10:02 pm
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Skip,

Do you have any kind of strength and conditioning program you recommend or teach to your pitchers?  

Do you teach pitches and pitch sequences or do you mainly focus on pitching mechanics?  

Is everything just God Given ability and you just properly sequence it for them?

After you teach a even average pitcher’s great command and they max out their velocity, where can they find  or how can they add more velocity?  Or is it even possible?

Sorry for all the questions, but all of a sudden I have a profound desire to try and figure out what you are teaching. 

 

Thanks

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Coach Robo
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September 20, 2011 – 10:12 pm
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I'm trying too, Skip. 

1.  How is the stride a reflex reaction to the glove side activity?

2.  What is an “anchored front shoulder”?  What position is it in when it is anchored and at what point in the delivery should it be in that position?

3.  The lower body generating extreme throwing arm speed is pretty much what 3x is all about.  Do you have an explanation for the effect the lower body has on velocity that differs from what 3x teaches?    

Proud father of a U.S. Marine (HOME from Afghanistan)

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Zedoryu
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September 21, 2011 – 3:05 am
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Yes Darrell that was exactly what i was saying. Brent has got a strength and conditioning program that helps build power through the delivery. and as we have said earlier that the stride is not a reflex reaction to the glove side activity, but the glove side activity is a reaction to the stride. i'm not sure if you have been reading because we have mentioned this and as Scott said answer the questions that we ask without posting another question. As Coach said, I too don't know the meaning of anchoring the front shoulder.

       

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SCOTT D

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September 21, 2011 – 8:29 am
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…..”Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in”. – Michael Corleone

 

Okay Skip,

Here's another question that I don't expect you to answer:

 

Your “First Law of Pitching” is “Their shoulders remain horizontal throughout their motion”. Here's a brief list of pitchers who blatantly violate that law. In fact is difficult to find any hall of famer who doesnt:

 

lincecum

chapman

morrow

chapman

hernandez

halladay

schilling

clemens

beckett

maddox

nolan ryan

koufax

mariachal

feller

 

I could go on. But i dont want to take up too much bandwith……….. 

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singtall

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September 23, 2011 – 2:11 pm
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i just went through his website and read everything he had to say and watched every video.  i “think” i'm starting to understand what he is trying to teach.  the problem i have with most pitching instructors is that they use terms that make no sense to the average or even smart person.  i will elaborate on some of my thoughts after the “education” i received from his site:

1) the “pitching window” barely makes any sense to me, and where do you get the data to back up the “7 times larger” claim?  if a larger window=a bigger plate, isn't that a good thing?  if hitting the target is bad, i'm missing something.  maybe he means that a bigger window means a great degree/size of error?

2) getting stacked:  i'm thinking that if you get into a stacked/balanced position, it will also slow your forward movement which will give runners more time to run.   the examples i see of guys that stack like he wants also take a long time to “fall” forward”.  i may be misunderstanding the stacked examples, but i agree with Brent that your hips should lead and forward momentum is a good thing.

3) foot position on landing;  i see a bunch of pros getting into the front foot closed at landing position that he warns about.  i guess my problem is that too many great pitchers do everything he says not to do. 

some of the teaching sounds way too Mr. Myagi.  i don't know how you can not think about what your legs are doing and lead with your glove.   the bottom line to me is that it's too hard to understand what he is trying to teach.  in his defense, it took awhile to understand Brent also.  i had to learn the lingo, which wasn't as hard since it was stuff that was already out there in the olympic training world, and simple anatomy facts.  

here is where i can agree with his teaching;  i taught little league pitchers for a couple of years (mostly using Brent's methods) and occasionally i would have a kid that would look pretty good and throw real hard but couldn't find the plate to save their lives.  here is the one tip i would give them that always worked:  drumroll please…….”keep your head still as you move towards the target”.  if you concentrate on being centered with your head and allowing your head to steer you towards the target in a straight line,  you will tend to throw straighter.  i haven't taken the time to see what effect this has on velocity though.  i just know it works for me and the kids i've taught.  this “still” head position will put you into the positions described in Mr. Myagi's teaching without thinking about anything else.  how did i come up with this new revolutionary teaching?  Karate.  simple fact:  if you control someone's head, you control his body.  grab someone's hair and turn his head downward and his body will follow.  my personal pitching experience is that if i tilt my head to the left via Lincecum, i will normally miss left.  if i finish with my foot closed, i usually miss left and finish my pitching motion facing away from the batter.  granted, i'm 44 years old and hardly an athlete nowadays.  but i can see some merit in his teaching.  only other thought on the “head centered pitch” (see i coined my own pitching term) is that it changes the arm release slot.  slot comes from shoulder tilt, remove the tilt and you will start to see some sidearm release (that's my experience anyway).  can be good or bad depending on which “religion” you subscribe to.

to some up my thoughts:

Brent's teaching (to me) is about throwing at your full potential at an elite level, which takes conditioning and time.  

Pro pitching institute is more about making the best with what you have, no further development needed,  just optimize your pitching through balance and body angles (are lack thereof).

my son wants to throw like Chapman or Lincecum.  he read the 3X pitching book and took lessons with Brent.  i explained the Pro pitching method as best as i could to him and asked him to throw me a few and see what he thought.  he threw and finished mostly from a side arm slot (as a result of the head and shoulders not having an angle) and said it felt “different”.  he missed the strike zone both left and right (when he missed, which wasn't too often.  he is pretty accurate).  he then went back to Brent's style of pitching;  when he missed, it was either high or low, but always pretty near the middle of the plate.  i asked him which he preferred;  he said he would rather miss high or low in the strike zone and throw with a lot of velocity.  i guess 3X pitching is here to stay.

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