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Weight Training Pitchers – Agreeing to disagree
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bezball25

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March 13, 2012 – 12:23 pm
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LOL.. actually your wrong brent. What i meant by strength training is Tago did not hit the weights at all. This i know for a fact. Number 2, i dont consider doing air sqauts or ladder drill as your typical strength training. Heavy weight training is what im reffering too.He did bare minimum at best with NO HEAVY WEIGHTS. He couldnt squat his body weight. I know he did core and agilitys. Thats awesome, but not this olympic heavy weight stuff.

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Brent Pourciau USAW Certified
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March 13, 2012 – 3:26 pm
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I am not wrong. You said he did no strength training. Strength training is weight training. Now you say he didn't do weights at all. So you are saying he never lifted anything but his own body weight in his training programs at Redline? I find that hard to believe. I need proof if you are going to make these outrageous claims.

What you are arguing here is not weight training or strength training, it is heavy load resistance training and you obviously have not researched this much. It is also obvious you have been raised by conventional wisdom and have never done any type of heavy load Olympic lifting in your life or have you increased your own pitching velocity over 90+ or have you trained a young pitcher to overcome his genetic limitations into a high velocity pitcher. I have done all the above.

If my experience isn't enough for you then here is the scientific research to support the effectiveness of using heavy load Olympic-style training to build an elite pitcher.

Baseball Throwing Velocity: A Comparison of Medicine Ball Training and Weight Training

The results of this study suggest that the use of heavier loads has been more effective than the medicine ball training in increasing velocity…..

Kaneko et al, determined that training with heavier loads of 100% maximal voluntary contractions (MVC) resulted in increases not only in strength but also in unloaded movement speed. Similarly, a training study by Schmidtbleicher and Buehrly found that the use of relatively heavy loads of 80-90% MVC enhanced the performance of powerful dynamic movements more effectively than light loads.

Velocity Specificity of Resistance Training

A recent review by Behm and Sale concluded that balistic movements such as throwing and jumping are preprogrammed and that maximum limb velocity is determined principally by the rate of force development and overall force output. Improvement in these factors does not seem to require low load, high velocity training, but rather heavy loads or even isometric contractions. Research by Behm and Sale demonstrated that it may be the intention to move quickly that determines the velocity-specific response.

Enzyme activities of FT and ST muscle fibers in heavy-resistance trained athletes.

Fast Twitch and Slow Twitch fiber area was greater (P less than 0.05) in athletes than in nonathletes.

It is suggested that long-term heavy-resistance training results in specific metabolic adaptations of Fast Twitch and Slow Twitch fiber types. These changes appear to be influenced by the type of resistance training.

Muscle fiber characteristics and performance correlates of male Olympic-style weightlifters.

These results suggest that successful weightlifting performance is not dependent on IIB fibers, and that weightlifters exhibit large percentages of type IIA muscle fibers and MHC IIa isoform content.

Definition of Type IIa, these fibers are in the middle of the muscle fiber spectrum, as they are less fatigue resistance, produce more muscular force, and contract at a faster speed than slow twitch fibers.

The reason I promote heavy load resistance training with the Olympic lifts is because it worked for me and mainly because these lifts are plyometric movements that use triple extension to perform the movements and also allows you the ability to increase the loads to a heavy load. I must use this approach along with the 3X mechanics to help young pitchers who may not have the genetic makeup to reach high velocities because science has proved heavy load training to be the most effective way to enhance performance as shown in the case studies above.

If you think you have a better way then I would suggest that you do not use examples of pitchers who were throwing in the 90's when they were in high school. I did not break 90 until I was 26 years old. Jim “The Rookie” Morris did not reach 90+ until he was 34 years old. Billy Wagner did not reach 90 until he was a Junior in College. All of these pitchers did this with heavy load resistance training.

You are also arguing against the training methods of Nolan Ryan, Roger Clemens, John Rocker, Dan Miceli and many more MLB veteran high velocity pitchers.

I am calling strike three on this last point unless you can provide some real substance to this forum.

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bezball25

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March 15, 2012 – 1:24 am
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. Im sorry for the confusion. I know body weight and all that is good. I have raised pitchers up to the elite level in velocity.

Number 2 there are PLENTY of scientific evidence to support that Olympic style does more harm than good. What im saying is if 17 yr olds can barely do any training and throw 98mph then heavy weight training isn't the only way, as you describe. Matter of fact i go one better. There is a 140lb 5 foot 6 pitcher in the royals system who doesn't do any heavy training, but basics and run and throw..He is 98mph to 100mph consistently. If one can do, all can do it. Clemens worked out real hard , lost flexibility and fastball dropped 8mph. When he was younger and thinner, he was overpowering. Ryan loves long toss. He is wrong on that too. Just because a name does it, does not mean they know anything.. Theres more than the one below but its a start

 

Slow, high-effort strength activities are unrelated to factors involved in high velocity activities. For example, working out with heavy weights as part of strength training would have no beneficial effect on the velocity of a baseball pitch

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Brent Pourciau USAW Certified
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March 15, 2012 – 2:56 am
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“1 + 1 = 6 and the earth is flat. I once saw a Leprecon. You can not argue with this because it is true and I know 2 people who believe this.”

Seriously, do you expect me and anyone else reading this to believe what you are typing above?

I never said 3X pitching is the only way to pitch or heavy load resistance training is the only way to enhance performance. I just said it worked for me and many others that I have trained and I have listed the case studies that prove these claims. You have supported your bogus claims with only your own words. You have posted no links to any other credible sites supporting these claims, so how does anyone know that what you are saying is even true or just made up? If we should believe what you are saying is true then should we not also believe my first sentence?

There is no such study that proves Olympic style anything does more harm than good.

What in God's name can the knowledge that some 17 year old, who can barely do any training and throw 98mph, do for a low velocity pitcher who wants to increase velocity? You are basically telling these low velocity pitchers who want to increase velocity that it is all about genetics and if you don't have it then sorry, it wasn't meant to be! I was told this many times by well respected doctors after my career ending rotator cuff surgery. I didn't believe it because all of my research was telling me otherwise.

Roger Clemens pitched until he was 45 and he was still throwing in the low 90's. When did he loss 8 miles per hour?

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitch…..8;pitch=FA

Your quote, “working out with heavy weights as part of strength training would have no beneficial effect on the velocity of a baseball pitch” So where is your proof? If you actually read the case studies above you will learn that the opposite is actually true. Specifically in this study:

Baseball Throwing Velocity: A Comparison of Medicine Ball Training and Weight Training

The results of this study suggest that the use of heavier loads has been more effective than the medicine ball training in increasing velocity…..

Kaneko et al, determined that training with heavier loads of 100% maximal voluntary contractions (MVC) resulted in increases not only in strength but also in unloaded movement speed. Similarly, a training study by Schmidtbleicher and Buehrly found that the use of relatively heavy loads of 80-90% MVC enhanced the performance of powerful dynamic movements more effectively than light loads.

I have to say though the fact that you have provided no substance to this debate except for the fact that you believe that because some 17 year old can throw hard and supposedly doesn't train then this means that no pitcher should train if he wants to throw hard, makes me believe that you have some magic trick to pitching velocity. Is this true and if so can you share it here with the rest of the TopVelocity community?

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bezball25

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March 15, 2012 – 3:31 pm
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This is your nature, to get mad at everyone who doesn't believe in your stuff. Are you crazy??? I gave you a scientific document stating heavy load training has no benefit. Im saying the training Tago did will bring on better results. All low velocity pitchers could train like tago or these 10 other guys i could name and reach high velocity. Just like what i mentioned about the royals 140lb kid throwing 100mph. This isnt genetics, its science. Even dick mills understands this.Although i dont agree with everything he says, he is right on 90%..This isnt worth my time, take care

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Zedoryu
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March 15, 2012 – 4:24 pm
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I don't like butting into good debates but anyway, I believe it's natural for anyone to get mad or at least frustrated at anyone who doesn't believe you. I'm sorry to say that we haven't actually got solid proof that “weight training” is not effective. In baseball, there are alot more genetic freaks than there are “normal” players. It's because baseball players lack the knowledge of strength training. If you look at other sports like american football or sprinting, “normal” players there are gaining success with strength training. I have seen many baseball workouts that don't have weightlifting, and they all consist of the same things. It's like this, ask yourself this question, if all workouts are similar, what can I do to improve my workout? Simply by adding resistance up goes the challenge to perform that movement. We have shown that the pitching delivery is nearly identical to olympic lifting. Also, look at this from another perspective, baseball workouts usually consist of drills to help develop motor coordination. The only real strength training in there are like your agility work or maybe bodyweight stuff. You can add weight onto these exercises to make the workout much tougher. It's just that simple. In basketball, scouts will always recruit players who can dunk rather than players who can shoot from the halfway line and score more points than the dunker. It's the same, people will get the more explosive rather than the more skilled. Baseball workouts are based around the skill area, while weight training is based on explosiveness. Well, sorry to take your time, but we're just proving our point, not getting upset and mad that someone doesn't believe in our belief.

       

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Brent Pourciau USAW Certified
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March 15, 2012 – 4:53 pm
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Yes, definitely not mad here. Just would like to see some other credible sources supporting your claims. I am completely open to other opinions and approaches to pitching here. In fact I support it because this helps us all learn but if you are going to make bogus claims on this site in opposition to the 3X approach to pitching without any credible sources to back it up then it is a waste of time and provides no real education to the student pitcher.

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Coach Robo
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March 15, 2012 – 6:54 pm
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Well, that was interesting.  Lesson:  Don't bring a dull knife to a howitzer fight with Mr. Porciau.  Now, I wonder if Connor's coach is still out there…

For what it's worth, I should have been a little more respectful in challenging him without knowing the whole situation.  But, I'd still like to hear his response to my questions and his version of the story.  There's a lot here for him and any other conventional coach to respond to.  Still waiting…

Proud father of a U.S. Marine (HOME from Afghanistan)

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