Alan Jaeger is upset that TopVelocity.net has not done the proper research on why extreme long toss bad for pitchers. He said in an email to me, “If you are going to be in the public domain, I would urge you to do the proper research.” I am not sure if you have visited his website but I do not see him practicing what he preaches. There is a lot more research posted on TopVelocity.net than www.jaegersports.com but I will still give him what he has requested in his email, “Proper Research.”
I have stated on this website that extreme long toss bad for pitchers and is not as effective in developing velocity because it forces the thrower to use more of the arm to throw the ball a long distance like 300 feet. I also said that if you want to increase velocity you must develop throwing mechanics that use more big muscle groups, like the core and legs, rather than mainly the small muscle groups, like the shoulders and arm. Once you have learned these “Total Body Mechanics,” like I talk about constantly on this site and have listed in detail in the 3X Pitching Velocity Program, you will not only begin to throw harder but you will take more stress off of the arm which will allow you to throw longer.
Research on Why Extreme Long Toss Bad for Pitchers!
I will use Dr. James Andrews and his studies on proper throwing mechanics at the American Sports Medicine Institute to support my claims above. You can read his case studies here http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/research/baseball.htm.
A quote from Dr. Andrews’ case study on “Interval Throwing Program” states:
“Throwing from flat ground produced a shorter stride and less shoulder external rotation at foot contact, more elbow varus torque during arm cocking, a more upright trunk at ball release……”
A quote from, Dr. Andrews’ case study on “Shoulder Abduction and Lateral Trunk Tilt Influence the Peak Elbow Varus Torque During Pitching” states:
“The combination of 10 degrees of lateral trunk tilt and 100 degrees of shoulder abduction produced the minimum peak varus torque among all conditions in the study. Thus, the results of this simulation study clearly show that shoulder abduction angle and lateral trunk tilt have an affect on elbow varus torque and thus can be helpful in reducing stressful forces on the shoulder and elbow during pitching.”
A quote from Dr. Andrews’ case study on “Flat-Ground Throwing” states:
“Elbow varus torque was greatest during 180 ft’ throwing.”
You can read Dr. Andrews’ case study on “Biomechanics of Elbow Injuries During Throwing” to learn about Elbow Varus Torque here http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/research/usedarticles/elbow_injuries.htm
Based on these three studies performed by the most respective Doctor in the game of baseball, we learn that throwing long toss at only 180 ft, which was the farthest distance used in the study, causes more elbow varus torque because of the shorter stride and the lack of forward trunk tilt than pitching on a mound. Could you imagine the results of these case studies if they used 300 ft instead of 180 ft?
Mr. Jaeger, I am sure you have an answer on why extreme long toss bad and your Long Toss Program addresses these issues but there is a better way than using this “Old School” approach to “Arm Development.” I believe that better way is learning “Total body mechanics” by using normal throwing distances because we do not throw with just our arms. We also never throw the ball 300 feet in the game. If you want to develop more pitching velocity and decrease injury, you must also work hard to remodel fast twitch muscle fibers in the weight room using total body lifts, like the Olympic lifts, along with plyometric training and speed/agility work.
I warn all pitchers that perform a long-toss program, that pushes the distances to 300 feet, you better make sure you have “total body mechanics” because if not, based on Dr. Andrews’ case studies above, you are putting extreme amounts of pressure on your elbow which could ruin your arm and end your career. This is why extreme long toss bad for pitchers!
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Wes Pennington, ASMI Quotes
" However, while elbow varus torque was seen to increase with distance, compressive forces generated at the elbow and shoulder were measured to be less in long distance flat throws. It was pointed out how this may be related to the low incidence of throwing injuries in non-pitchers.
Clearly, within the data itself there is an argument both for, and against, the use of long toss routines in baseball training. While the long toss debate has drawn more controversy over the past few years and arm injuries have increased, ASMI has decided to revisit the question with more knowledge and precision. More is known about throwing mechanics today than when the previous studies were completed- around 1995-96- and several limitations present in previous studies can now be addressed, including a more accurate program to analyze the data. Finally, it is important to note that no studies have been conducted examining throwing from 180+ feet so no definitive, quantitative statements can be made about throwing mechanics, forces, etc during any 'extreme long toss' until any data is gathered."
To read Wes Pennington's quote and some other great points on this subject at the ASMI forums follow this link http://asmiforum.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=ge…
Another forum on this issue http://letstalkpitching.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?…
Proper form in any body movement is key but the only way to gain max arm speed is to overload your arm with long toss. The same way plyos and any other extreme weight program there are risks and of course huge rewards if your body can take the abuse you are asking it to take. Anybody that says long toss is not good for your arm to develope strength and endurance has never fully tried long toss for an extended period of time. Your arm is a muscle just like your legs how fun was it the first time you squatted ? But you keep on lifting and lifting and with better form each time it get easier to lift more wieght. NOT A SERMON JUST A THOUGHT
I would agree with your comparison of plyos to long toss on the arm muscles but remember that plyos is breaking down the muscles of the legs and core. These are big muscle groups that can heal overnight. Long tossing breaks down the delicate muscles of the rotator cuff and arm. These are small muscle groups that take a few days to heal. This is why arm recovery is a major problem for pitchers and this is the main point of the article. Long tossing 180 feet plus forces the body to use more arm because of the trajectory of the throw. Therefore using long toss to "Strengthen your arm" is risky because it is putting a lot of stress on your shoulder and elbow. If your arm isn't recovering quick enough you are vulnerable to damage. There are many other ways to build velocity that are a lot safer and in my book more effective.
i think its strange that you guys say so many great things about tim lincecum on this site but say long toss is bad for you when lincecum is a huge advocate for long toss
This is because I am talking about long tossing more than 180 feet. I do not believe that he is an advocate of this.
i would most deffinently agree that long toss is bad for baseball players. Dick Mills is the only guy, until now, that has not bought into this whole long toss stuff. Every one i know thinks long toss is good for you. Back in the "old' days pitchers didn't long toss, and they didn't miss starts. They threw a lot in between games. Why have we become so overprotectective with pitch counts and everything? It's rediculous.
Not sure why the Dick Mills video is up there. I understand it is in support of the article, but it is just irrelevant. Dick Mills is comparing a Cy-Young award winner who has the most unique mechanics in all of baseball to a random person who he associated with Jaeger. I have no association with Jaeger myself, other than a clinic I attended at the age of 15 ten years ago, but I played long toss my entire career and not once did I ever look as bad mechanically as that kid in the video. Long toss is valuable only if done correctly, just like anything else. Drinking water is harmful to the body if you make a bad decision and drink too much. In the same way, long toss must be done correctly to be helpful.
In my opinion from my knowledge of pitching and observing pitcher after pitcher, game after game "HERKY JERKYING" RECOILING" their arms,short striding, early rotation, throwing across their body's, stutter step "STRIDING" starting then hesitating the stride, taking all day "SLOW MOTION" from start to stride finish, then all of the sudden here goes the arm only exploding with nothing else, "NO BODY ASSISTANCE" with it to throw the ball to it's intended target is one reason why there are the huge numbers of pitchers and potential pitchers with chronic sore arms and surgeries from the major leagues down through the minor systems on down into our youth as young as 13 yrs. old. Before I signed a professional baseball contract I spent many hours throwing from the outfield starting at age 12yrs.old and then also in the minor leagues, I am now 77 yrs. old and can still throw decent batting practice to high school and college players at 50 ft. of course, if I do not come up with a wild streak at the time. What I observe is that there is too much over distance long toss throwing and substituting long toss and other things and not near enough time spent on bull pens and on mound throwing for pitchers.
The main reason for the sore arms and surgeries and other throwing inadequacy's is the drastic need to have an experienced, knowledgeable, competent "PITCHING" "TEACHER" who can teach them how to properly pitch with their whole body's from the ground up to alleviate the tremendous strain created on the arm when throwing a baseball
Hitters have the same delemma here.
at the time
Dick Mills finds some washed up kid "trying to get back into pro ball" and compares him with the best pitcher in baseball. Then he says that since the kid is at Jaegers facility that he can assume that he is doing everything correctly and compares him to the best pitcher in baseball. Then he does not mention that Lincecum long tosses as much as anyone! I have seen him plenty of times stretch it out well over 300 feet with a high arc. Like said above, the kid in the video is not a good example of what long toss should look like and you are comparing him to some of the best (In my opinion) mechanics in all of baseball.
Also, there is so much talk about how useless longtoss is because you never throw more then 60 ft in a game. You are right, pitchers never throw more then 60 feet. But they also dont do squats, lunges, rows, bench press etc during a game either, so does it make weight lifting useless? I dont think so. Long toss simply trains the muscles similarly to resistance training the weight room
My question would be if you don't long toss then how do you build arm strength? The angle throwing off of a mound creates much more stress on the arm. In my personal experience as a former SEC and minor league pitcher I have always had success with long toss up to 120 ft. It is all about technique in the long toss. If a pitcher is simply trying to reach their target on a fly by throwing rainbows then their mechanics will be effected. If their focus is hitting their target on a line with little arc on their throw then they are getting the most out of long toss and building arm strength properly. It is also a good drill when long tossing to put an object such as a hat about 20 feet in front of your target when reaching 100-120 ft. By creating a small target in front of the intended target it will force the player to throw on a line with proper extension. If their is one thing that bugs me about baseball these days it would be the rainbow long tossing I see everywhere even at the professional level. Just a side note on how long toss has helped me…my college coach had us go through a weighted ball long toss program during the off-season. The average gain in velocity after program was 7 mph. I went from 89-90 to 95-98. I firmly believe in long toss as the only way to truly build arm strength and gain velocity.
I am talking about long toss over 180 feet. I basis this information on the ASMI case study referenced in the article that proves elbow varus torque occurs at 180 feet. If you are under 180 feet like you stated here then you are fine.
Arm strength can occur with a good rotator cuff strengthening program, with bands and light weights, or by just throwing but throwing is not the only way. In my career I also threw 120 feet during warm ups and used the hat drill. This is a good warm up drill. This drill will help strengthen your arm but you will need more than this drill to increase velocity. Weighted balls are a more dangerous way to build velocity. Weighted balls used by someone who has all arm mechanics could cause major injury. I believe velocity mechanics are total body, so I use drills with weighted medicine balls using two hands to perform my throws. These drills are in my Ace Pitcher Handbook.
Thanks for the comment!
Whoever says long toss is either BAD or Hurts a pitcher is so far up their ass the can see what the just ate. Obviously any idiot can post crap on the internet and can say what they think is right with mechanics.
The simple fact is that long toss increases velocity. It should NEVER be a strain. The St Louis Cardinals do it on ALL levels and every pitcher on the staff increases velocity by the end of the season. The key to throwing hard is Early Momentum, A Good Lead Arm, and Late direction. There are too many jokers out there thinking about balance points and staying behind the rubber to build up momentum. Watch any of the great pitchers and you will see they gather while moving away from the rubber, have a strong lead arm, and stay closed as long as humanly possible.
Easy long toss with no strain is esscential to creating a feel for your body and pitches.
Just because you belittle the author before you state your so called FACT doesn't make your argument valid. Yes, anyone can have a website. This is pretty much understood, but if you are going to post FACTS on the internet you better have some data to back your claim up with or you sound like a hot headed kid.
I have said it several times on this site and I will say it again, when I talk about long toss I am talking about anything over 120 feet. This is because research shows the issues with this distance.
I am glad you have your own approach to velocity but if you are going to post it on TopVelocity.net while disrespecting the author then go post it on your own site.
aron ,you dont know anything…why are u talking shit on here if he is just trying to help your career….brent knows his stuff he has helped me a great deal an this is defiantly backed up by research ……and why are you on this website then anyways if u just want to talk trash…. brent good job man great website
I appreciate the support. You are right, I am just trying to help people here because I wish I would have had a source like TopVelocity.net to go to in my career. It wouldn't have taken me so long to get back to pitching again after my surgery in college.
I did use some provocation when writing this article and I do encourage other opinions and heated debates on this site but all I ask for in return is that those in opposition, please keep it professional.
yes defiantly …very grateful brent
and isnt it true that when u really start maturing and filling out big velo. gains come out automatically
Yes, that is why I believe in the Bigger, Stronger, Faster approach to pitching and in all sports. Why just rely on your genetics when you can use strength and conditioning to take it even farther? Jim and I talk about this in his interview here http://topvelocity.net/jim-the-rookie-morris-inte…
You guys obviously have No lives. Im not talking trash. I get upset because you can have anyone give you stuff to back up arguments.
The simple fact is Long Toss up to at LEAST 300 ft. is critical to building both arm strength as well as GOOD for mechanics. I personally know Dr. Andrews and many in baseball. The sport is being ruined by people who "Claim" they have all the facts on how to pitch or hit and couldn't be more wrong.
There's plenty of pitching coordinators and pitching coaches who simply DONT realize what proper mechanics and techniques are. Dr. Andrews has such a thriving practice because of the poor teaching and people discouraging proper mechanics and long toss. Look at the Cooperstown website for proper mechanics on ALL the great pitchers. As well every single PROFESSIONAL long tosses for up to and OVER 300 ft. If dont correctly with no effort and NOT on a line then it will increase velocity.
Furthermore, talk to Brent Strom, if you dont know who he is then you don't belong in baseball!
Aaron or should I call you one of Jaeger''s Droids?
Definition of Trash Talking – it is a form of boast or insult commonly heard in competitive situations (such as sports events).
"Obviously any idiot can post crap on the internet and can say what they think is right with mechanics."
Prove to me that this isn't trash talking.
"The simple fact is Long Toss up to at LEAST 300 ft. is critical to building both arm strength as well as GOOD for mechanics."
Please give us some research or theories on this because there is a lot of good information against this type of extreme long tossing.
"I personally know Dr. Andrews and many in baseball."
Name dropping does not work on the internet. Especially when you are not using your entire name and we have no idea who you are.
"The sport is being ruined by people who “Claim” they have all the facts on how to pitch or hit and couldn’t be more wrong."
So are you saying that you are the Guru to pitching and that we should all be listening to your words of wisdom?
"As well every single PROFESSIONAL long tosses for up to and OVER 300 ft."
I WOULD LOVE TO SEE YOU TRY TO PROVE THIS ONE!!! Just listen to my Interview with Jim Morris who went from 86 to 99mph in his career after 9 arm surgeries. He says that he would only long toss to 120-150 feet and that he never did any extreme long tossing like you claim every PROFESSIONAL did here!
I am wondering if you have any opinions of your own or has Jaeger completely brain washed you with his YOGA philosophies to pitching? Do you know that Alan Jaeger wasn't a PROFESSIONAL ball player? I wonder if he was even a pitcher.
A word of advice Aaron Somebody! GOOD mechanics come from analysis and performing drills that focus on developing muscle memory to promote good pitching mechanics. It doesn't come from just throwing the ball 300ft and doing yoga. I have had guys come to me from Jaeger's program injured because they had mechanical issues that made them more vulnerable to injury and Jaeger had them throwing the ball 300ft. Look at Jaeger's claim to fame Joel Zumaya who has been plagued by injury and in his last injury broke off his shoulder bone while pitching. I have actually never heard of this type of pitching injury until this happened. I just want to know how does a pitching coach defend this? I am a supporter of Tom House, but when his claim to fame Mark Prior had so many shoulder injuries that it ended his promising career, I then had to believe that this was why House decided to go into coaching because this publicity hurt his successful pitching instruction business. The FACT in all of this is that pitching velocity and health comes from a fusion of different exercises and programs and it doesn't lie in just extreme long tossing. If you really believe this then "I have a bridge to sell to you."
Hey coach , I'm not pushing you or anything but what ever happens to the quick tips and articles thanks brent
I am glad that you are pushing me here. I should have some new stuff coming up within a few weeks. Thanks!
I don't understand your logic above. You claim long toss shouldn't be done (in part) because no [pitchers] ever throw 300 feet in a game. Yet, you go on to promote weight lifting as a good form of training. Well, no pitcher ever has to lift an object more than 5 oz. in a game, either. So, if lifting heavy weights is good training, why isn't long toss? Surely, being able to throw a ball 300 feet requires more strength than throwing it 60 feet, no?
It seems that the people who are against long toss always use stories of either some successful pitcher who didn't long toss and/or stories of someone who got injured doing it. To the first point, using anecdotal evidence is a dangerous thing. One could conclude, using such logic, that eating 20 hot dogs and drinking a case of beer a day is a great training regiment for a hall-of-fame power hitter (i.e., Babe Ruth). To the second, one could conclude that the act of pitching damages arms by using examples of all the pitchers who have been injured. It's my suspicion that long tossing is no more or less *inherently* dangerous than pitching, and that proper preparation and technique (as well as genetics) are the main factors in injury or success in either.
Anyway, you're still not supplying anything scientific about why long toss is bad. I read Dr. Andrews's articles and they don't state that; it simply identifies some factors that can lead to arm injury in certain cases. The quotes you supply above are implying something out of context that the article doesn't state.
Finally, you've stated multiple times that long toss is harmful and not beneficial to pitching because pitching velocity is not the product of the arm. Well, neither is throwing a baseball 300 feet! No one can throw a baseball 300 feet with just his arm. A 300 foot throw is as much the result of leg and core strength as a 90 MPH fastball. True, the mechanics and release point of a 300 foot throw and a pitch are not identical, but they still require all the same muscles, and one can't throw 300 feet without building those muscles to significantly above-average strength.
I'm not totally convinced that long toss increases velocity, but I've seen no proof that it's harmful, and intuitively it seems there's plenty of evidence that it builds strength that can both increase pitching endurance and reduce injuries. I'm still in the process of gathering scientific evidence that this is the case (which is why I'm not proclaiming it as anything more than my hypothesis at this point), but since you're claiming as fact that it's harmful and useless, I would like to see scientific evidence that backs this up, as Dr. Andrews's articles don't do so.
"Well, no pitcher ever has to lift an object more than 5 oz. in a game, either. "
You are incorrect. They must lift and launch their body which is why weight training is so effective. This is why I teach triple extension. This is the act of driving forces into the ground using the muscles of the body to build momentum and torque. Weight training trains a pitcher to perform triple extension with more explosive power.
I will say this again, I am only talking about "Air it Out" long toss up to lengths of 250-300 feet. You can long toss up to 120-150 feet without putting to much stress on the arm. If Dr. Andrews case study doesn't give you scientific research that elbow varus torque is greatest when long tossing at extreme distances then I don't know what to say to you.
“Elbow varus torque was greatest during 180 ft’ throwing.”
The deal is Everett, Jaeger's approach to pitching is built on hype and many years of experience using that hype to build his name. If Jaeger's program was so great then why does his droids continue to roam TopVelocity.net? People do not waste their time defending a program that works. They only defend things that they are invested in and don't want to be proven wrong. If you are one of his droids and you are looking for answers then stop wasting your time defending your previous investments and search for the truth. The truth is, my approach to pitching velocity works and if that isn't enough for you then here is Jim Morris talking about his program. Maybe you will find your answers here:
I have to warn you first, his approach is the same as mine.
Best of luck!
Well, it's nice that you responded, but you responded to one-and-a-half of my many points, and not with much actual logic at all. I don't say that to be rude or argumentative, just that when you follow the rules of logic, you're not being consistent. Your example about "lifting" the body does not equate to the point I made. In fact, if anything, you're making my point for me. You're acknowledging that strength training can improve performance, but rejecting that the strength built in long-toss can do so. Okay, why? What's the difference? If someone can go from throwing 180 feet to throwing 300 feet in long toss, hasn't he built arm strength? How does that strength not affect pitching when strength built in weight training can? Specifics would help us understand your point.
You seem to have misunderstood the principle of specificity of training in the same way that Mills has. What Franklin Henry was talking about when he identified this principle was motor learning, not strength. So, when it comes to pitching, it's correct that one actually has to pitch to be able to learn things like throwing an effective curve ball or learning to hit the corners with consistency. But, when you're talking about building power and/or endurance, complimentary exercises absolutely can improve performance (just as you recognize weight training can).
This study will answer your question why heavy load training is the ONLY way to increase velocity and long toss isn't. The study is called Baseball Throwing Velocity: A Comparison of Medicine Ball Training and Weight Training and you can read it here. This study took one group that only threw a baseball for 8 weeks and another group that threw the baseball for 8 weeks and did med ball training and the last group which threw the baseball for 8 weeks and did heavy weight training. The only group that increased velocity was the heavy weight training group.
This is the case because heavy load training is the only training that recruits more fast twitch muscle fibers and builds more motor units. Yes, you need to train your central nervous system to fire its motors units quickly through the sequence of joints that throws a ball but this alone will not increase velocity if are currently a baseball player. This would only increase velocity for someone who never throws a baseball.
Your use of the word "Arm strength" is a poor term when it comes to velocity. Velocity is generated more effectively and efficiently through the legs and core and long toss does NOT build explosive strength at all. The American Sports Medicine Institute has NOW proven extreme long toss as being a destructive training exercise for pitchers because it causes injury and changes pitching mechanics. This was their final analysis of extreme long toss.
You can read the entire study here called Biomechanical Comparison of Baseball Pitching and Long-Toss: Implications for Training and Rehabilitation.
I highly recommend that you purchase my program the 3X Pitching Velocity Program because if you continue down this destructive path of extreme long toss you will run across this conversation on this website when you are older and kick yourself for not opening your mind to a new approach to pitching. I promise you this because I speak from experience.
Oy… this is like shadow boxing. I think I made the point about velocity coming from the core above. "Arm strength" is just a convenient euphemism we all use for the sake of brevity as we all know what we're talking about. Splitting semantic hairs is really kind of dodging the issue.
I do appreciate your willingness to apply, but you really haven't addressed any of the points I brought up in any of my posts above. You sort of referred to one, but not really in a way that logically addressed the question.
I appreciate that you're trying to help young pitchers, but it's quite clear you don't really understand the scientific method. The study you cite about the three groups above has no bearing on long-toss whatsoever.
While I have some respect for what the ASMI has tried to do, their methods are very suspect. In fact, the main reason the ASMI was founded was because the doctors who do the bulk of the work there (especially the controversial Dr. Andrews) couldn't get the funding to do it anywhere else. For example, the other study you cite (which we had already discussed) is hardly the final word on the subject, for two reasons: 1) It's a quantitative study, not a qualitative one. Its sample group is far too small for a quantitative study, especially one of its kind. 2) There's no effect documented (and for that, you would also need a control group). All of what they observe is speculative as far as conclusions. That's why they use vague terms like "caution is advised."
We're still in the very early stages of understanding exactly why really get injured in the pitching motion. The more anyone tries to define a "rule," the more cases there are to contradict the rule. Take Chris O'Leary's vengeance against the "Inverted W." If a layman reads his stuff, he can make a pretty convincing case. But, if you understand how the scientific method works, you understand there's nothing but anecdotal evidence, which doesn't prove anything. There's just as much, if not far more so, anecdotal evidence that the "Inverted W" is no more dangerous than a "conventional" pitching motion.
Also, nowhere in anything I've written have I said, implied, or even hinted at being a pitcher or doing long-toss. In fact, if you go back and read my first post, you'll see I'm not 100 percent sold on it. But, I do believe in proper methodology and logic, which you are not employing here.
I am neither an advocate nor a practitioner of long toss. I have my own questions about its efficacy, which is what lands me on sites like this. But, nothing in the evidence your citing or in your own arguments is making any kind of logical case for showing any cause-and-effect as to why long toss should be avoided.
If you think these case studies are so flawed then please bring forth some that are not. By saying that I have not proven my case because you have made your claim that my references are bogus, makes you sound like a sadist. Show us your references to back up your rhetoric and then this will be more than just shadow boxing. I am here to educate those about a total approach to pitching and to stay away from those one drill, or one exercise, or one gimmick as the only means to training the pitcher. In my book that is total ignorance and most of baseball participates in this ignorance. The fact that I take a total approach to pitching is why this site is so popular.
Brent, I honestly didn't come on here to troll or to argue with you, but everything I've brought up you've refused to address. You're evading every single point. Saying, "If you think these case studies are so flawed then please bring forth some that are not" is just an absurd and irrelevant statement. So, your response is that no one can impeach flawed research unless he can replace it? That makes absolutely no sense.
As I've mentioned above, more than once, I'm not a proponent of long toss. I'm neutral on the topic, as I am about everything until I've found good evidence on which to base a decision. What you've supplied is not good evidence, and it's also clear you don't really understand it and are just hoping the credentials will impress people into accepting it blindly.
And, every question I've asked but one, you've evaded. Evading questions and calling people "droids" doesn't make you come across as someone who has confidence in your theories.
Can you tell us what criteria you use before accepting research and passing it along as valid? If you want us to accept this study as the final word, you should have no trouble telling us why.
You should also be able to tell us the difference in angle at release required to throw a ball 200' vs. 120'. So, what is it?
Everett, instead of whining that I am "evading" and "refusing" to answer your questions, why don't you please put them down in bullet points for us so I can give you your answers. Or do you really want the answers?
I have total confidence in my program. My program is why I was able to overcome rotator cuff surgery and play again, after doctors told me I was finished. I not only played again but played professionally and topped out at 94mph when I was told this could not happen. I did not use extreme long toss and neither did Jim "The Rookie" Morris when he made his incredible come back. You need to listen to my interview with him here http://topvelocity.net/jim-the-rookie-morris-inte…. He also used a heavy weight training program.
"Can you tell us what criteria you use before accepting research and passing it along as valid? If you want us to accept this study as the final word, you should have no trouble telling us why."
Here is my process in finding my references. I read everything I can put my hands on and if I find something that I like, I post it. I am open to reading anything. I am also open to any debate. This is why I let you insult me on my own website. Do you think Alan Jaeger would do this? I seriously doubt it! If I find any information that opens my eyes to new information, I jump all over it. I have always been this way. If I was not like this then I would have never overcame a major career ending injury. I had to stay open minded because I needed to find something that worked and worked fast. Extreme Long toss was definitely not it and believe me I tried it. Not only does it not work physically but it doesn't work on paper either. To answer your last question.
"You should also be able to tell us the difference in angle at release required to throw a ball 200? vs. 120?. So, what is it?"
What angle are we talking about here. The angle of the elbow to wrist or the angle of the trunk. The angle of the trunk is the problem and this is what they pointed out in the ASMI case study here "Forward trunk tilt at the instant of ball release decreased as throwing distance increased." We know that in high velocity pitchers they have more forward trunk tilt at release which is stated in the high velocity to low velocity ASMI case study here "forward trunk tilt at ball release were also greater in the higher velocity group." This is why Jeager has his "Pull Down Phase." Here is my article on why his "Pull Down Phase" is a bad solution to this problem.
If you really want to continue to spin this topic then how about I post a link to this discussion on the ASMI forums? Would you be cool with this?
Brent, after reading your website and going through many throwing programs i decided that it would be helpful for me to buy you 3x velocity book. I received the book in the mail, and realized ..not to be rude…that it was merely a gimmick. I just graduated h.s from IMG Academies in fla. Anyway not to get off topic, i was trying to implement the techniques you showed in the book, but to no avail. A few techniques were helpful, such as keeping weight on backside and launching forward, as well as using the torso to create torque. However i felt that i found myself creating my own techniques out of the unspecific teachings in your book. Also, and again i dont want to bash or be rude, i found that the 3x veloity technique which seemed to be your biggest promoter was unclearly explained. I didnt fully understand the technique and was unable to implement it in my program. Could you please give a more in depth description of the 3x velocity techniques as well as the other techniques.
The med ball works were very helpful and i found them useful, however most of the other workouts seemed extremely simple, mostly things i had already known. Im not sure if this was because i train at a very high level of competition or you were just giving the absolute base workouts. Anyway after reading and re-reading the book, i found mysef only gaining about a 3/4 page of useful information. (i record all helpfull baseball related topics in a marbeled notebook). i am sad to say this because i had originally believed this book to be a crucial part of training.
I still have alot of respect for you and your company. You are an idol to me and i look up to all major leaguers, former and current. I will always appreciate what you have done for the baseball community, but please, if convienent give a detailed analysis of the topics covered within the first few page (mechanics) of the 3x velocity book. thank you for your time!
Mike, it sounds like you are having a hard time using the program. I highly recommend that you purchase the entire program which includes all of the instructional video streams along with the one on one email coaching, unlimited video analysis and the entire 3X Pitching approach which is in the 82 page 3X Pitching eBook. Once you have the entire program you will find it to be very effective and definitly not a gimmick. The definition of a gimmick is a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or business. I will promise you that I did not develop the 3X Pitching Velocity Program to just attract attention. I did it to continue to help those who are in the same situation that I was in when I developed the program which is to increase velocity and prevent injury.
This is the first line of communication I have had with you. If you would like to use the program correctly then you need to start with the instructional videos so you know that you are doing everything correctly. If you feel that the exercises and the lifts are simple then I would like to know what your power clean max is and your back squat max is. I know that if you were actually doing these lifts you would never call them simple. Next time before you post your review on this site I would appreciate that you first actually work with me so I can get you what you need. That is why I do this. I am not here to just take your money. I am here to help. You paid $59 for the handbook and Fed Ex Kinkos charges me $45 to print and ship. That means I made $14 dollars to sell you my entire program that took me 10 years to develop. It is obvious that I do this because I want to help pitchers like you reach your velocity goals. So, let's start over. I want you to watch this video bellow and then please post on the forums here your questions so we can get you on the right track.
WOW! Brent, really appreciate the service. I was definately stuggling with learning some of the different techniques in the book. And appreciate the time your taking to help me out. Sorry for acting like an asshole, idk it was late and i was browsing around baseball sites, no execuse for acting dumb.
Anyway im going to check out the link and post back with any questions i have. As far as my max squat and power clean im pretty sure that was rhetorical question. Again, wasnt really thinking much when i wrote that past post. To put it better than "simple" i just thought there would be more movement lifts, specific to baseball. As in like SL BTN Lunges w/ bar. Im just a 18 year old kid so as far as i know those are very baseball specific lifts, but i kind of felt that they were regular lifts that i see most guys in the weightroom doing. Not questioning your credibility, just curious because although ive gotten alot of baseball experience and knowledge from various camps, showcases, coaches etc. its nowhere near comparable to yours.
Also UPDATE: Im 3 1/2 months out of tommy john surgery. So sadly, although i will be able to shadow some of your drills i will not be able to do them at game speed for quite sometime. This obviously coincides with lifting excercises. Basically all im currently doing is running long distance, sprints i.e. 100 yard – 60 yard dashes, and core work. Right now im just trying to learn as much about all aspects of the game as possible.
Thanks for your time!!
Continue discussion here http://topvelocity.net/forum/ace-pitcher-handbook…
Just spent the last hour reading these comments. I have to say……. came out a little bit more knowledgable. Thanks Brent!
Hey i’m going to be pitching for a d1 school in baltimore, coppin state next year and I got the off season program, and the program is contains alot of body weight exercises like planks, hip flexors, push ups, etc. And it also states that when we lift we only do 60% of our max. In my opinion I think lifting heavy weights and low rep is bad bcuz it causes pitchers to bulk up and lose flexiblity and range of motion in the arm. I couldn’t tell when u were talking about lifting if were saying pitchers r suppose to overload and lift like football players, bcuz I think every sport is different and every sport should train differently. I mean no offense when I say this. Also from what I’ve been taught from a former MLB pitcher who I do private lessons, Ive been told that increase in velocity starts with mechanics and using the whole body to launch the baseball, lift very little weight with upper body, increase flexiblity, focus on core, legs, scap, and back, plyos and body weight exercises, and repeat mechanics & focus more on bullpenn work than distance throwing. If u have other ways of increasing velcoity please tell me I’m all ears. Also rice bucket exercises have helped me with arm maintenance. It may look cheesy at first, but it’s a tough workout and really helps the forearm muscles.
James, unfortunately you have been taught by the conventional wisdom of the game. It is a road that I would advise you to get off of if you want to enhance your own performance in baseball. If you are not setup genetically to have a 90+ mph fastball then body weight training will only get you so far. If you have studied anything on Velocity Specificity you will learn that heavy load training in combination with high velocity light weight training is the most effective way to increase your speeds and power as an athlete. Here is my most recent article on Velocity Specificity:
This article also makes the point that if training more like football players is so bad for baseball then why does Major League Baseball always draft football players?
Lifting heavy weights makes you tight is a fear tactic that baseball coaches use who have no knowledge of strength and conditioning. I am a USA Weightlifting certified Sports Performance Coach and a retired professional baseball pitcher. If you are using a soft tissue program along with a Dynamic Warm-up and you have good lifting technique, you will never get tight and loss range of motion. You will actually gain flexibility and most importantly mobility.
I am glad you found this site and where brave enough to post your concerns here. I hope you will take more time on this site to benefit from its knowledge so you can have a significant effect on your pitching career. Here are some of my latest articles with scientific proof that heavy weight training will improve pitching velocity and even help reduce injury. Also below is a link to my pitching mechanics video showing the importance of power pitching mechanics.
3X Pitching 101
Brent. Love the site. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I landed at your site through a google search. I was looking for varying opinions on the pros and cons of long toss. I have a sneaky suspicion that it’s not good for arms. Thanks for sharing your insights.
As an aside, I encourage you to proofread what you write. I was quite surprised that you completely left out words multiple times and misspelled several words as well. If you’re going to write publicly it will serve you well and add to your credibility to proofread and take the time to use proper grammar. I hope you receive the constructive criticism in the spirit it was intended. Again, thanks for sharing your knowledge.