This videos covers the importance of “Separation” which builds core torque, increases velocity and takes stress off of the arm. Brent Pourciau also talks about how “Triple Extension” and the “Load” position is the key to generating optimal “Separation.
Separation and Triple Extension
by Brent Pourciau | Jun 6, 2009 | Pitching Tips | 24 comments
I think this is a pretty good video, however I think what you call triple extension really just means the back leg turning over, which happens as a result of what is happening in the pelvic region. Once the hips have fully opened, the back leg has no choice but to turn down and in. Maybe you have found this to be a more useful cue for your players, but the movement is originated from the hips, whether or not focusing on them or the back leg is what produces the actual results.
Also, your only real suggestion for how to practice this is to put yourself in that position and then try to feel it and land there. Setpro's backwards chaining approach really bridges this motor learning gap if you care to continue refining your approach. I think your website is much further along than 99% of pitching websites out there in that it actually focuses on throwing mechanics. I called you out on a couple of your articles but I think you do a real good job compared to most, like pitching.com for example.
Lankylefty, i think you missed it on this call. if you listen to what he's teaching, you will. understand that he's not simply showing you how to turn the back leg over.
this is all about generating torque to produce velocity. loading the back leg and pushing off is not simply turning it over, which i can do without loading the back leg. i see too many pitchers falling from the mound instead of loading up and extending their back leg.
i also checked out the website and articles on backwards chaining. they didn't say much about how to do it, and they also gave plenty of tired old advice that will get you hurt.
take the time to listen to Brent's video and understand it before "calling him" on something you know nothing about.
It also looks like to me you do not grasp the concept that pitching is a sideways forward body movement triple extension with lower body, hips, upper torso, shoulders separation being executed in proper sequence at the proper time during the forward body throwing movement which is, during the foot, leg and rear hip drive from the rubber into a stride of at least matching one's body height by stretching, extending the front foot and leg out reaching for the front foot touch down point which is driven to the landing point by the drive and stretching out, extending of the rear foot, leg and hip out to their fullest length from the rubber while rear foot is still momentarily attached to the rubber just prior to touch down, actually I call these two leg extensions double, triple leg extensions beings both legs are stretched, extended out at the same time while driving to the point of a soft knee landing front foot touch down.
type in http://www.topvelocity.net/Nolan-Ryan/ click on Nolan Ryan, slo motion top velocity . net which is a great video clip of Nolan Ryan demonstrating how what I have explained on how the whole pitching movement, "TRIPLE EXTENSION" ect. should be executed and taught. then you will see what Brent is attempting to get over to those who do not understand these movements and the fact that "DROP and DRIVE" and " STEP and FALL" are still so ingrained into everyone's minds that they do not understand the changing terminology to "TRIPLE EXTENSION" with "LOWER BODY, "HIPS" "UPPER TORSO,"SEPARATION" being executed in proper sequence and at the proper time during the pitching movement.
These very important movements executed properly during the pitching movement are very instrumental in allowing the pitcher to properly use his whole body from the ground up which alleviates the enormous tension, strain and abuse created on the arm during the pitching movement.
I think Brent does about as good a job as he can over video of trying to explain how to achieve this separation. But how can you communicate a feeling (of the hips "firing" correctly, for example) over video? The answer: you can't. So that's why the suggestion to just get into the correct landing position, throw from there and then try to land in that position is unsatisfying. Ultimately, the player's mind and body have to figure out what this feels like on their own.
I speak as somebody who has grasped exactly what I'm supposed to look like at landing, but struggled repeatedly to actually achieve this separation when put into the entire delivery. I guess I'm just saying that it's SO much easier said than done. No critique to the video whatsoever, but a valid point to mention nonetheless.
The biggest thing for me was realizing that, at some point, video taping every throwing session was just not the way to go. And stressing about exactly what I look like at landing just created paralysis by analysis. At some point, I just had to rear back and throw the shit out of the ball – to a catcher off a mound from 60 feet. That helped me more than anything.
I was a little harsh in my comment earlier. That was a long time ago and my views have changed some.
How ya doin?'
As we all have learned up through the years it takes what I call "THE PAIR" which is, #1."MENTAL and #2. "PHYSICAL" "CONTROL" to make adjustments plus app. "21" days for an adjustment to begin to materialize, "PATIENCE," PATIENCE," "PATIENCE," we must display "PATIENCE," "YOUR MIND LEADS YOUR BODY," Yes it is easier said than done, I have a feeling that maybe you expected too much too soon, remember if you have thoroughly read Brent's words on the triple extension and hip, shoulder separation you would remember that he said that without a strong core those two body movements may not sync. successfully together at the proper time and in their proper sequence will take some time with mental and physical effort. separation at the point of front foot touch down means that the shoulders stay closed and the hips rotate and open to the batter, which at this time the hip and shoulder separation are in place. I have two beautiful front view pictures of Tim Lincecum and Sandy Koufax in their front foot touch down position one of Steve Carlton and one of Matt Morris all stretched out in triple extension just a split second before front foot touch down, if you could view pitchers in these positions it would be easier for you to grasp the vision of those positions. To get the feel of the separation get into your batting stance, now leaving your shoulders closed, sideways, aimed at the pitcher just rotate your hips to the pitcher, do this a few times then stand in your pitching position, shorter stride than normal, now rotate your throwing side hip only, advance in small increments until you have it down to "100" percent of your body height. the body has two separate moving parts, the upper half and the lower half, you can move them together or you can move each part separately. Skaters have a terrible time with this if they are not taught and physically worked on how to adjust accordingly, in skating circles it is called double leans because they do not keep their heads centered between their shoulders, hips and feet and their hips under them. The core is ultimately important in all rotational, explosive, twisting and turning body movements.What do you mean by stressing about what you looked like at front foot landing? When you went back to just rearing back and throwing I have to feel like you gave up because in the process you left out triple extension, hip and shoulder separation and regressed back to adding all of that previous tension, strain and abuse created on your arm during the throwing movement that does not occur when throwing with triple extension, hip and shoulder separation executed at the proper time in the proper sequence. " MENTAL,PATIENCE" is a virtue. work it out in bull pens and now in the off season, once you get it all down your overall control, command and velocity will improve considerably and your chances of serious arm, and shoulder problems etc. will diminish.
hey guys hope u can read my comments, i understand the seperation.. i am quite flexible and my core is strong enough to hold this position.. i am confused with getting my own "timing"
i push off laterally and try to keep my hips closed at landing, then in an instant thrust the hips through the zone followed by the rest of my upper body?
simply having your hips open too soon allows not enough rotation.. so i guess the timing is harder than i thought?
Here is two articles that go into more detail about this component and the timing factor. I hope this helps.
How are you coming on your timing?
At front foot touch down with a stride length of at least matching your body height your arm should be approaching it's passing by the ear reverse "L" vertical launch position which determines whether one is on good pitching timing or not.
Get into your front foot touch down position then place your arm into it's reverse"L" vertical position opposite your ear, some people talk about arm speed hesitation at this point which if there is any at all your timing and all of the momentum and force generated from the ground up to that point is virtually destroyed, when you get your momentum started and going "BUILT UP" from the rubber down the hill under control and you take the ball out of your glove lead by your elbow down back around and up to your release point and follow through do not slow down any of your movement pick up your movement and momentum as much as possible.
View the video clips Brent display's of Lincecum and time him to front foot touch down then time his arm speed from the time the ball leaves his glove to it's destination," catchers glove" also view where his arm, ball in hand position and location are at front foot touch down.
Hope my comments are of help to you.
coach i have a question im real into studying fast twitch and slow twitch muscles and how come some people are real good at something but not good at another like if someone can run a 6.3 60 but not have any arm strength or throws gas and cant jump that high etc… i was hopeing you could answer that thankyou
Good question! Your example of someone who can run a 6.3 60 but they have no arm strength, this to me would be a mechanical issue and not a fast twitch issue. I also believe your later example to be the same problem. If you have a lot of fast twitch muscle fiber then you have the potential to throw hard, hit hard and run fast. If you can do neither of those skills then this is a mechanical problem. I mean you do not have the muscle memory necessary to perform the complex movement of throwing, hitting or running. You are then in a category of athletes who when taught these skills learn faster than those who do not have the fast twitch muscle fiber.
like i mean i throw hard and hit real hard and run pretty good about a7.2 bu my jumping is alright i can get rim on a basketball hoop but im 64 , im a sopohmore in hs and i was wondering do you automatically get more explosive as you mature?
Right I'm no baseball player, in fact i play a game which has an aspect very familiar. Cricket. At first I was sceptical surely this will break your back (twisting motion) but when I looked at a picture of Tim L and Shoaib Akhtar (fastes bowler of all time) both in their release point i was blown away.
I knew read, read and read, but know where did anyone speak of timings. You have been so helpful. I don't have the money for coaching/training at top facilities in the UK but what u've said I have practised in the rain to a fence, yeah i look crazy. But, if it means I can get to 80+mph speeds then I can trial for County and that is a dream. lifetimes Dream. All thanks to you and your select few words. My younger brother is already applying this and gaining speeds fast….thank you!
I have a question though, what training can I do to develop more core torque in terms of weights; or is it as simple as general core and back work?
Hanan, thanks for posting your comments here. If you are looking for a FREE workout then make sure you signup for the Velocity Secrets eBook at the top right of the page. You will receive an email with the Beginners Workout. Here is also an introductory video on my approach to pitching called 3X pitching. Watch the video and tell me what you think. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJOM_TOkCoc
Hi Brent, (apologies if this is a bit much – but the concept of 3x and separation is fascinating)
Firstly sorry for the grammatical and spelling mistakes. It was a long day at work.
The workout looks good. I have been at the gym for 6 months now, stats:
Height – 5ft 9", Age: 22, Deadlift: 140kg, Squat: 125kg. Bench I do not do (much).
and of course I will be incorporating your routine to what I currently do.
As mentioned the sports are different but not entirely dissimilar but below is a link to a picture of Shoaib Akhtar (the bowler I mentioned earlier). Compare this to Tim L and you'll see why I am reading everything on this website.
I noticed in a video of mine that prior to my front foot landing (I am right handed so this will be my left leg – in baseball the drive leg), my back leg drags about 6 inches. This shortens my stride length – how detrimental is this to velocity?
Other errors I noticed:
1) I open to early
2) My right hip is lagging behind (a lot of force is applied to my shoulder)
Does this sound like I have poor mechanics or a lack of muscular strength? can this all be fixed by applying the triple extension? (Or are they separate issues).
**An interesting question for EVERYONE**
How are bowler in Cricket able to reach speeds of Pitchers in baseball, considering pitchers are allowed to bend their elbows where as we must keep a straight arm coming over our heads? Shoaib has bowled on a couple of occasions at 100mph and regularly hit 95+. Of course there are more bowlers current and old that were around this speed. None to beat his record though
Hanan, the differences between bowling in Cricket and Pitching is that pitching starts in a static position and bowlers are allowed to run or build up momentum into the throw. This means that the stride is not as important to the bowler than the pitcher. The pitcher needs a long stride to have more time to build momentum and the bowler just needs a long field to run on to build momentum. This is why a bowler can reach speeds up to 100mph without externally rotating the arm. If they tried to externally rotating the arm they probably would do a lot of damage to the rotator cuff.
The only mechanical component that I feel is just as critical to both the bowler and the pitcher when it comes to velocity is back hip to back shoulder separation at front foot strike. Which I talk about in the video here. Triple extension will help the bowler to achieve optimal hip to shoulder separation but it is not as important to do this than it is for the pitcher. See the video here of Lincecum and Akhtar, Lincecum is using a longer stride with more more triple extension to generate speed and Akhtar already has the speed from the run and is using some triple extension to open the hips before front foot strike so he can convert the speed into torque which is the separation of the hips to shoulders.
<img src="http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/pitching%20clips/lincecumVSakhtarslow.gif" />
The deference in these deliveries is in the starting position and what matches up the same is how these two athletes convert speed or the power of the stride or run into the body at front foot strike. They both use hip to shoulder separation to convert that speed or power into torque. This eventually works up the kinetic chain and launches the shoulders and then arm.
WOW, thank you so much for your analysis. You cannot imagine how useful this is to me. Coaches here do not teach this, they believe a bowler is born not made. So either by chance you have the right mechanics or not. Now I see this is totally wrong.
This link is MY ACTION. Am I right in then assuming I am not at all applying the triple extension and therefore little or no shoulder to hip separation? which explains the occasional shooting pains in my arm.
You are selling a product which is geared towards baseball. Do you not have something that is solely a training program for shoulder to hip separation and triple extension? as anything baseball related is irrelevant. (i.e. a reduced advanced training version). I'll be happy to purchase.
Thank you again Brent – I actually want to play some baseball now 😀
I would recommend that you purchase the 3X Pitching Velocity program because as you said there is nothing out there for bowling. It will definitely help you increase velocity mainly because of the strength and conditioning program which was developed for a throwing athlete. The training program alone will give you what you need. As for the throwing drills in the program it works to teach you triple extension and hip to shoulder separation and I believe as you get comfortable with the program you will see how it needs to be modified for bowling. Let's put it this way. If this video above helped you then wait until you see the hours and hours of video that comes with the program. You will be very happy you bought it. If you purchase the program and you feel that I am totally wrong then I will give you a full refund.
You know what I will purchase the product (When I get paid 🙂
Did you get a chance to look at my action (The link above) ?
I'll understand if you can't comment if you are charging for this service but a brief comment on what is majorly wrong would be great.
Hanan, if you could find a video on youtube of Shoaib Akhtar from a side perspective like the video footage that you sent me then I can do a comparison and give you some tips.
Link to the video (it's the best I can find)
You want to skip to 4.48 min into the video
Thanks again, 😀
That works. I will see what I can do.
Here is your analysis Hanan.
1st week of training past, already noticing a better posture so going well.
I had a quick question with separation,to increase your separation are there any specific flexibility drills? or will the separation angle increase with strength?
Separation is increased through speed or power. If you can focus on your power lifts and the anaerobic conditioning part in the baseball training manual then you should see your front leg staying more stable and your triple extension more explosive. This will create more separation. Hanan can you continue this conversation at the forums because these comments are growing long? Thanks!